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T.C. Moore wrote a facebook note several month ago on Calvinism and Holy Hip Hop. Suffice to say, only hours later that night when yours truly posted them up on what was formerly once known as Black Trinitarian Theology, Celucien Joseph made a link to the post, and Nick Norelli responded with his helpful criticism of T.C.’s points.
Today, the saga exposing the Calvinist bias of Holy Hip Hop continues with a look at the Christian rapper Flame, whose Calvinism leads him to accuse other church members of being intolerant of the Reformed tradition.
In his track, “who can pluck us?” Flame suggests:
I’m trying to tell you something you probably have never heard
And if you have you probably perceive them as dirty words
WORDS LIKE ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION
CAN GET YOU STONED AND THROWN OUT OF A CONGREGATION
However, Flame misunderstands the Arminian position, as Jim Leonard of Arminian Baptist notes. Arminians believe in predestination and election. but we link those doctrines with union in Christ, we are predestined through and according to Jesus Christ, the Son and chosen in Christ. The key words being: IN CHRIST!
I dunno, if you have to put the word, “holy” infront of whatever you are doing, you have to be kidding yourself.
What is Holy but The Lord (The Creator of all) Himself?
Penultima
Yes, God alone is holy, but Scripture also says that God calls us to be Holy just as God is Holy. Therefore, God has provided the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies us. So, one could say that Holy Hip Hop is a music variety whereby the artists are led by the Holy Spirit, and for that reason alone, may they call themselves Holy.
Truth and Peace
Rod
Hi, Rod.
The origins of Hip Hop, were not Godly, and therefore not holy in and of itself. An unholy thing, cannot be made holy, just because a person thinks it is holy.
Holy Murder, Holy Lying, Holy Adultery, Holy Hip Hop.
Holy Calvinism = Holy Satan-worship. It just can’t be holy.
“The origins of Hip Hop, were not Godly, and therefore not holy in and of itself. An unholy thing, cannot be made holy, just because a person thinks it is holy.”
If this statement were true, then both you and I, and the entire world, would be in a heap of trouble.
The origins of our very selves are not holy. We were all (with the exception of Adam, who first rebelled) born into sin, and therefore, unholy.
Yet, in God’s grace, he chose to make himself nothing, and pay the penalty for our rebellion, with the plan of making that which was not holy, perfectly holy and in union with him.
You are right, the origins of Hip Hip were very unholy and sinful, but what man intended for evil, God meant it for good, and because of that beautiful truth, we can call hip hop holy, just as the children of Gpd can call themselves holy.
Because of God’s Sovereignty, and God’s Grace.
Hey Rod,
I just had a question about what you meant in this paragraph. It seems kinda vague to me and I’m not understanding what you mean:
“Arminians believe in predestination and election. but we link those doctrines with union in Christ, we are predestined through and according to Jesus Christ, the Son and chosen in Christ. The key words being: IN CHRIST!”
What exactly is the difference you are trying to make here by including the words “in Christ”?
Jared,
Election and predestination in Arminianism occurs corporately. We are corporately elected as the Church, chosen in Christ. Predestination is not about us, or God choosing us as individuals, but choosing us in, through, and according to the image of God’s Son. That’s Romans 8 and Ephesians 1. Calvinists just focus on the words “predestine” and “elect” but election in Scripture happens through a person, Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
Come on now, Rodney! *tisk, tisk*
Two things really:
1) Your criticism of Flame. Let me just say I know very little about him and the “Holy Hip Hop” movement in general, so he just might be a terrible dude. Still, the lyrics that you cite are not necessarily representative of a distortion of the Arminian position. I mean, seriously!? It’s like taking Derek Webb’s lines, “I’ll say words that’ll rattle your nerves; words like sin and grace alone,” and supposing by that that Derek is accusing his opponents of not believing in sin and grace! Flame is merely pointing to the battle that indeed is going on in many churches here in America- an ideological battle that, as I’m sure you’re aware from your studies African American culture, is informed and practiced as a battle of words/terms/concepts. In short, he’s not necessarily (and, let’s be fair, probably not) saying what you are trying to say he is. He is merely (for better or worse) pointing to what is a reality in many churches: that you can indeed be kicked out for using particular language, because to the leadership it is indicative of Calvinistic thinking.
2) “Calvinists just focus on the words ‘predestine’ and ‘elect’ but election happens through a person…” Huh!? What? Who!? Rodney, Rodney, Rodney…. First you say there is a bias in the Calvinist rap circles, only to use suspect interpretation to back it up, and now THIS!? Don’t make me start quoting Edwards or Owen here… I’m not looking for fisticuffs and all that jazz (i.e. I think there is too much ego-driven banter on the internets pertaining to this topic, and in this case I trust what the Spirit is doing in you) just that you clean up the polemic a little. Implying that Calvinists think predestination happens with no contingency to the intentions of the persons of the Godhead is pretty sloppy, bro…
Yeah, I always find it strange when certain Calvinists think that the doctrines of electioin and predestination are unique to Calvinism. Thankfully not all of them think like this.
@ Penultima,
That is not the position of the author of this blog. Just as God is able to transform sinners into saints by the the power of the Holy Spirit, so also God is able to transform the sinful music and lifestyles of such sinners into godly music and a godly culture.
@James Williamson,
1. If you click on the link for Jim Leonard in my post, the entire song is quoted for the most part. So, the accusation that I am taking Flame’s lyrics out of context is uncalled for. He is villifying others who disagree with him, James. That is clear from the entire song. Who disagrees with Calvinists? Arminians.
2. James, I will clean up my rhetoric. Thank you. I will say that uninformed persons who call themselves Calvinists (we all have friends like that) who do not refer to the persons of the Trinity in their understanding of predestination and election would be mistaken. But the Calvinist theologians who do so are far and in between, would you not admit, James, in comparison to the Arminian and Openness theologians? Predestination and Election, in my view atleast from New Testament precedent, are Christocentric in nature.
1. Sure, Calvinists and Arminians disagree. Is it wrong for Flame to “do battle” via his songs, though? I think not, and you’d probably agree, assuming that we represent our opponent fairly and treat her with a Christ-like love. But what you initially do with your argument is attempt to prove the bias of the Holy Hip Hop (something I will not disagree with you on), by showing lyrics of Flame that you say distort the Arminian position. Importantly, the rapper uses the words “probably” and “can” in reference to the terminology and their possible effects on those in a congregation, and is not speaking to the opposing theology so much as the potential qualms of his listeners (i.e. he is seeking to “convert” them to Calvinism!). See what I’m trying to get at? He doesn’t distort the position, only (possibly) embellish the hostility shown to Calvinists in some churches (a fallacy if we were philosophizing perhaps, but this is rap- right!?).
2. No worries at all, bro, just don’t clean it up TOO much because I enjoy it. I’m not sure about your assessment. I mean, I’ve been exposed to a lot of great Calvinist teaching and preaching, but my experience could be fairly uncommon, and what I perceive to be the trends and directions of the “New Calvinism” could be otherwise. I find it very paradoxical to think of a Calvinist, of all people, not emphasizing those roles, though, ya know!? But you could very likely be right…
1. James, the problem is though, as Nick pointed out above and the link from Jim Leonard, is that he is implying that election and predestination are UNIQUE to calvinism in his song. When I hear predestination and election from the pulpit, I do not think of calvinism, I think of Jesus the Messiah, the Chosen One.
2. I need to do some more reading on the Calvinist teaching on the Godhead compared to Arminianism. Even though, I am very familiar with Edwards.
Rodney,
This is only a miniscule example of Holy Hip Hop’s now nearly exhaustive, uncritical adoption of the pop-Calvinism that it’s view’s TV/Internet psuedo-stars are continuously spewing. Another more insidious example of this is the “Don’t Waste Your Life” tour of Lecrae that is—truth be told–SPONSORED by Calvinism to create a propaganda machine.
Flame is merely the next in a long line of HHH artists who has uncritically and mistakenly accepted Reformed theology as biblical. It is sad really. Very sad indeed.
Why such vitriol?
“Pop-Calvinism”; “TV/Internet psuedo-stars”; “spewing”; “insidious”; “propaganda machine”; and perhaps the most dangerous, “uncritical.”
What happened to viewing a brother than better than yourself? I say this as a person who has been in a large congregation of Calvinists and Arminians who got along with one another (e.g. the lead pastor was Arminian, the college pastor Calvinist). To imply that all of these rappers are “uncritical” in their acceptance of a theological position, smacks of the very arrogance that your facebook group accuses Calvinists of (and I’ll be honest, often do display). Personally, I have had many productive, fruitful relationships with dear Arminian brothers. Still, there were Arminians who I couldn’t get along with, and they tended to be the ones who used language such as that above. Let me be clear: there is nothing wrong or disrespectful with disagreeing with a counter position. What I feel IS wrong is implying that all who hold that belief are not critical in their acceptance of doctrine; to decry its pastors as “spewing” propaganda.
Truth is, guys, you have a lot of young men and women being influenced by the teachings of very godly, humble men like John Piper. Far far being evidence of some kind of Calvinist conspiracy, the infusion of Calvinist soteriology into their raps is natural for any person who discovers a truth that he/she feels is pivotal for godly living, or the source of confusion for themselves (before) or their friends. I won’t defend all of their particular words or approaches (and God knows every Calvinist needs a cage stage), but that isn’t the point of the message I’m responding to anyway. Usually I would disclaimer my message with an “I’m sorry if I’m reading your tone wrong,” but unfortunately your words make it unmistakable enough- as does your photo in your facebook group. Such tactics, in my opinion, are not worthy of the servant of the Lord, who is to flee the youthful passion of quarreling:
“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth” (2 Tim. 2:24-25).
James,
I found this article helpful in describing pop or cultural calvinism.
http://www.koinoniablog.net/2009/07/estes-3.html
What do you think?
Piper is not humble. He’s skinny, and he sounds really old and decrepit when he preaches because he talks so slow and drags his words out. But he is NOT humble. He’s an arrogant know-it-all who knows nothing but how to blame God for his sins and preach putrid Satanism and cast aspersions on true Christians who believe in repentance and holiness and the actual GOODNESS and JUSTNESS of God as opposed to his evil lottery commissioner respecter of persons capricious tyrant who sends people to hell on a dice roll view of God.
Wow!
Mormon-styled Calvinists!? Yeah, I’ve never seen/heard of that.
I think he treats the subject really fairly. Of course, I think you could attack this whole question from a psychological/philisophical perspective as well. Just as many who entered into the early stages of the Reformation were lower & middle class a-holes with an agenda against the upper classes and a general angst toward the emergence of market capitalism and other cultural shifts, I think a lot of people coming into Calvinism carry certain dispositions that the theology “attracts,” in a manner of speaking. You could liken it to many individuals flocking to Kenneth Copeland because their natural personality type is that which seeks wealth.
Still, though- and like I talked about in T.C.’s group- I think the “pop Calvinists” preachers like Piper are deeply concerned with this as well, and are preaching humility and love strongly from the pulpit.
This is a very amazing article.
Thanks for that
He never even once mentions the fall in his preaching. He just preached repentance really.
that was supposed to be a reply to Marvin below.
Bottom line: Jesus was a Calvinist. End of story.
The only two songs that you could say are not Calvinistic are Trip Lee’s Cash or Christ (If they only knew album) and To Live is Christ (116 13 letters album) and maybe Lecrae’s Beautiful Feet (Rebel album). All the rest of 116, Cross Movement, Trip Lee, Ambassador, and Lecrae are Calvinist songs. Too much praise of the Kosmokrator. They treat this world as though God runs it, when we all know the devil does, why else would Paul warn us that our battle is not against flesh and blood but (Eph 6:12) “against the world-rulers (kosmokratoras) of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places”? God don’t “run this thing” as Lecrae’s song The King claims. These kosmokrator demons in heavenly places run “this thing” called the world, and our fight is with them. They also run Calvinism, obviously, and use it to bring THEMSELVES (not God) “all the glory” while shifting all the blame to God, both for sin and for the sorry pathetic shape the world is in.
Wow. When I recognized that God was calling me out of a life style that had me continuously seperated from God, and that my actions, my words, spoke to everyone around me, regardless of good or bad, that I was preaching a message, it was through men that were teaching others of Christ who came of a virgin, bore sins on a cross, dispised the shame, saw 3 days below before his resurrection and intercession at the right hand of the father. We as believers have been given the oppurtunity to share God’s infallible word as it is that he leads and guides us. I am not a calvinist, nor Arminian, but regardless of congregation it’s men such as these that God uses to draw a people unto himself, out of a pit. His spirit will lead and guide in such a way as for them to distinguish between truth and error. If we have worries about the things these men are teaching, why are we not praying for their enlightenment. If we are worried of those that they will minister unto, why are we not taking these burdens before the Lord knowing that he’s the one that taught us all that it is that we are to live up to. We can tango over big words, or place blame on others, but the mere fact that we stand by idly and do nothing only shows us where we stand. I mean this for no one in particular, even in writing this I myself may be viewed as a hypocrite because I too contend for doctrines in which I was taught or been showed in personal time with the Lord, but regardless of antics we can trust that all things good or bad, for profit of ones self or for others, all things will be exposed when the light is placed on them. And that my brothers/sisters will happen one day for all of us. May all of you find peace even in opposition. Teach your young men and may fruit from your examples be ensamples to all that watch, listen and follow the calling given unto them by the Lord. Pray for me, that I may continue contending for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints, as I will you as a group this morning